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Problem to run software (water surface unstable)

Hi Chris, Maybe you don't remind me, but I am Nancy the girl that came from Canada to your last workshop in June. I have been working in the water quality modeling for the Athabasca River as my thesis project. I am just starting with the hydraulic calibration, but I am having some problems. I have done some research and trials to solve them without success; I hope you can help me. I've set up my river reach (aprox. 800 km) which doesn't have any structure in 4 water bodies and 10 branches (266 segments). Initially, I had the water surface elevation [ELWS] at a higher level than my grid. The pre-processor gave me no errors, but 4719 warnings. Most of the warnings were due to a high wind speed (> 20 m/s). However, there were others for the following reasons: Cell width [B(18,127)=3.100] < 5m which can cause stability problems Cell width [B(6,111)=5.480] < or > 1Ox width [B(6,112)=71.080] water surface elevation difference of 5.60 m between segment 3l and segment 34 I ignored these warnings because they were due to my raw data, and I tried to run the post-processor. However, it was stuck after some seconds (aprox. 1/2 of the progress line). I could observe that in the Branch flow, Branch temperature, Water surface elevation and Minimum deviation sections showed up a NaN value (not a number). I saw the w2.wrn file that was created and it had the following information: Water surface is above the top of layer 2 in segment 22 at day 200.000 Computational warning at Julian day = 200.000 at segment 2 timestep = 3457. 000 water surface deviation [z] = 57.198 m layer thickness = - 56. 288 m Negative surface layer thickness in segment 2 time step reduced to 1.000 s on day 200.000 at iteration O computational warning at Julian day = 200.000 timestep = 0.900 sec I read in the manual that this error can be due to an underestimation of outflows. I checked the pre.opt file, and it says in the water balance section that the total outflows for the water body 1 were zero. I used the Forum to find more information about this problem, but I couldn't solve it yet. However, I downloaded all the software updates available. Running my river model in the updated version gave me the same warnings in the pre-processor, but the w2.wrn file gave me this information: water surface is above the top of layer 2 in segment 2 at day 200.000 computational warning at Julian day = 200.000 spatial change = 0. 10622841E+06 m^3 temporal change — 0. 11155343E+06 m^3 volume error —-0. 53250155E+04 m^3 LAYER CHANGE: F sz -13. 3921318655743 -13. 3921318655743 -14.4776308439698 -14.4841298333502 -14.4 581287787906 -14. 6076279768859 -14. 5166270211914 -12.4821226271932 -12.4821182331952 -12. 4821138391970 -12. 48210944 51988 -12. 4821050512008 -12.4821006572026 -12.4820962632045 -12.4820918692064 -12.4820874752082 -12.4820830812101 -12.4820786872120 -12.4820742932139 -12.4820698992157 -12.4820655052175 -12.4820611112195 -12.4820567172213 -12.4820523232233 The list continues up to … 1. 19319193 5483871E-002 0. 790601500000000 1. 00000000000000 1. 00000000000000 1. 00000000000000 8. 79000000000000 QWD The manual says: "This message is to let the user now that the volume error is more than 1000 m3. This should not normally happen unless the user has incorrectly modified the code or the water surface elevation solution has become uastable. The message is more informational and does not require the user to do anything as the volume error is arbitrarily set to 1000 m3." I didn't modify the code, and I wasn't sure what could make the water surface unstable. I decided to change the water surface values [ELWS] because they were above the grid. I couldn't find criteria to set this parameter and I set this 2m (about two layers) below the Elev-top value of layer 1 for each segment. However, after this the pre-processor gave me 12 errors. These are: No active segments in branch 2 Water level too low in branch 2[CUS(JB)50] connected to branch 1 by downstream head No active segments in branch 3 Water level too low in branch 3[CUS(JB)59[ connected to branch 2 by downstream head No active segments in branch 4 Water level too low in branch 4[CUS(JB)69] connected to branch 3 by downstream head No active segments in branch 5 Water level too low in branch 5[CUS(JB)106] connected to branch 4 by downstream head Water level too low in branch 6[CUS(JB)127] connected to branch 5 by downstream head Water level too low in branch 9 [CUS (JB) 196] connected to branch 8 by downstream head No active segments in branch 10 Water level too low in branch 10[CUS(JB)266] connected to branch 9 by downstream head Once again, I confirmed that there is not outflow in the water body/branch 1. I have also tried to lower the initial water surface even more, and it didn't work. On the other hand, I tried setting all my branches as different water bodies, but it didn't help. I have no clue about what is causing this problem. I will appreciate any guidance and help to understand why there is not an outflow from my first branch?, what are the criteria to set up ELWS?, What is the advantage of setting all the branches as water bodies? Thank you so much! Best regards, Nancy Gutierrez
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Hi Nancy, It's good to hear from you. Here are some suggestions: Set the minimum cell widths to 5 m. This will help speed up the model considerably without greatly affecting the simulated volume of the model. You might try using spillway algorithm at the end of branches rather than an internal head boundary. Set the spillway elevation to the bottom of the river and adjust the weir coefficients so that the model does not become too shallow and dry up. If you keep having numerical instabilities, reduce DLTMAX. Typically rivers have pretty short time steps (<30 seconds). Hope this helps, chris

Hi Chris, Thank you for your suggestions. I have tried all of them, but is still giving the same errors. No active segments in branch 2 Water level too low in branch 2[CUS(JB)=50] connected to branch 1 by downstream head Water level too low in branch 4[CUS(JB)=62] connected to branch 3 by downstream head Water level too low in branch 5[CUS(JB)=103] connected to branch 4 by downstream head No active segments in branch 10 Water level too low in branch 10[CUS(JB)=266] connected to branch 9 by downstream head There is also one warning that says: Water surface elevation is below bottom elevation at segment 33 However, this is an inactive segment (seg. 1, branch 2). The ELWS is the same as the one for the next segment, and it is inside the grid. I cannot understand what is happening to the water in the first branch. There is an average inflow of 178.13 m3/s, but there are no outflows. Any help is appreciated, Nancy

Hi Nancy, Could you post the control file section that includes the 'BRANCH G' and 'LOCATION' cards? thanks, chris

Hi Chris, I realized that I didn't update the BRANCH card yesterday. This is the final card that I've got. BRANCH G US DS UHS DHS UQB DQB NLMIN SLOPE BR1 2 31 0 0 0 0 1 0.00130 BR2 34 49 0 0 0 0 1 0.00140 BR3 52 58 0 0 0 0 1 0.00130 BR4 61 68 0 0 0 0 1 0.00120 BR5 71 106 0 0 0 0 1 0.00084 BR6 109 130 0 0 0 0 1 0.00064 BR7 133 155 0 0 0 0 1 0.00026 BR8 158 188 0 0 0 0 1 0.00038 BR9 191 228 0 0 0 0 1 0.00067 BR10 231 265 0 0 0 0 1 0.00067 LOCATION LAT LONG EBOT BS BE JBDN WB 1 53.6300 117.160 813.700 1 1 1 WB 2 54.1600 115.640 727.180 2 2 2 WB 3 54.7200 113.290 693.160 3 3 3 WB 4 54.9000 112.950 665.980 4 4 4 WB 5 55.0000 112.900 616.830 5 5 5 WB 6 55.1000 112.800 593.740 6 6 6 WB 7 55.2000 112.750 572.480 7 7 7 WB 8 55.3000 112.700 529.820 8 8 8 WB 9 55.4000 112.680 459.480 9 9 9 WB 10 55.8400 112.650 377.570 10 10 10 I've set the qin_brx files with 0 m3/s flow. It corrected the warnings, but now I have the following error in the postprocessor: Unstable water surface elevation on day 200.267 negative surface layer thickness using minimum timestep at iteration 4945 Segment, Surface layer thickness, m 62 0.00 63 0.00 64 0.00 65 0.00 66 0.00 My start date is 200 and my DLTD 200, 200.5 DLTDMAX 5, 30 and DLTF 0.1, 0.9 respectively. I also tried changing NLMIN to 2, but in this case the error change to: Fatal error - insufficient segments in branch 10 Julian day = 200.01 at iteration 568 with water surface layer = 4 Minimum water surface located at segment 231 with bottom layer at 7 I'm still learning how the software works. I will keep working on this problem tomorrow, if you see some good direction that will be great for me. Thank you :)

Hi Nancy, It looks like your branch 10 is drying up. If you are using spillways between branches, make sure that water is passing over the spillway between branches 9 and 10. You can also increase the friction coefficient (if you are using Manning's friction coefficient - the Chezy coefficient has to be decreased to increase friction...) to keep the water surface elevation higher. chris